52 Weeks at the Table – Week 4
In the early ages of mankind, Genesis 6 tells us, “The Lord saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.” And He set the limit of man’s days – which had included some almost-thousand-year lifetimes – to a mere one hundred and twenty years. Then He resolutely promised to drown in water a mankind already drowning in wickedness, sparing only righteous Noah, his family, and the animals preserved on a great ship. When the flood receded, and Noah offered God a sacrifice from among the precious few animals, God blessed that family and permitted them to eat both grain and game. But He also warned them and the animals with them that in this new world, life was to be regarded as precious; and from every man and beast He would require an accounting for each life taken. And He promised never again to obliterate all life with the waters of a flood.
Luke 9 reveals that, after feeding a multitude with multiplied grain and game, the often-righteous Peter confessed that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God. And Jesus promised to die and be the sacrifice pleasing to God, establishing a new kingdom and obliterating sin and death. So He resolutely set His face toward Jerusalem, and when He was not welcomed in Samaria, He refused to let fire be called down from heaven. For every thought of his heart was only good all the time, and Jesus had in mind bringing earth and heaven together by being suspended between them. By letting His years be limited to between perhaps 30 and 33, His intention was that a man’s days would far, far exceed one hundred and twenty years.
A Prayer Over the Bread
Lord God of all creation, righteous and just, You have preserved us to this day and You save us through the waters that wash away sin. Yet we know that only the sacrifice that You made could do accomplish this. That You could do this for so many, preserved by a ship no larger than a bowsprit and a yardarm, is astounding to us – such was the power in the body of Jesus on that cross to take up again not only His life, but ours. As we share this bread, we pray that, through the One whose body it represents, You will multiply our years in Your new world, Your Kingdom. Amen.
A Prayer Over the Cup
We give you honor and glory and praise, O God, and thanksgiving for the One whose blood was acceptable to you when ours was not, for our thoughts are so often given over to evil. Through that blood, celebrated in this cup, we are no longer held accountable for lives we have wasted, and we see how precious Your gift of life truly is. May a constant recognition of its value be our blessing as we drink together, we pray through Your righteous Son. Amen.
Blog In My Own Eye 
Keith, I guess I missed the lesson taught here, unless you are saying the plan of salvation was Jesus’ plan instead of the Father’s. and his was the over riding plan.“and Jesus had in mind bringing earth and heaven together by being suspended between them.”(and bringing everlasting life, instead of the 120 allotted)please expound
laymond, you know I love you and am always challenged by your comments, but I just don’t see the point in debating our differing views of Jesus’ relationship with God anymore.You have helped me understand why unitarians and, to a lesser degree, Muslims cannot accept a Trinitarian view of God – and I will always be grateful to you for that.But we’re not going to solve it between us.
Keith, when we look back on “The Bold Challenge” you issued, there is no challenge at all if you believe God, Christ, and the Spirit are one and the same, I don’t believe I ever heard a sermon that didn’t mention one or the other. Keith I, like you love all God’s people, especially Christian brothers and sisters, that is why I bother to try to share my understanding of God’s word. I could be wrong, but it is not intentional . I read the bible as it is written, I don’t read between the lines. May god bless.I tried.
Keith I hope you will read this. http://www.heaven.net.nz/answers/answer08.htm
laymond, you did try; you gave it your best shot. You just didn’t persuade me. Neither did the link you cited.At the heart of the issue is whether one can believe that a son can also be a father; that three can be one. I happen to believe that with God, all things are possible (< HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=26&version=31&context=verse" REL="nofollow">Matthew 19:26<>, < HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=10&verse=27&version=31&context=verse" REL="nofollow">Mark 10:27<>, < HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=18&verse=27&version=31&context=verse" REL="nofollow">Luke 18:27<>). Camels can go through needles’ eyes. People can be born again. Blind people see. Crippled people walk. Dead people live again.“My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” – < HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2010:29-30;&version=31;" REL="nofollow">John 10:29-30<>. So the Father can give followers to the Son, and the Son can be the Father and the Father can be the Son.Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?’ Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.” – < HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:6-12;&version=31;" REL="nofollow">John 14:6-12<> So the Father can be in the Son and the Son can be in the Father. Anyone who has seen the Son has seen the Father. And the Son can still go to the Father.Now I know some hold this scripture’s authenticity suspect, but I am not among them. But < HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=28&verse=19&version=31&context=verse" REL="nofollow">Matthew 28:19<> seems to phrase three names parallel in importance: Father, Son, Spirit. I take it on faith that God would not let anything so important as the relationship between Father, Son and Spirit to be corrupted in the scripture He chose to reveal Himself in.I don’t know or care whether this belief is blind, divine, trinitarian, or misguided. It is simply the conclusion I draw for the reasons I have stated.I will be the first to confess that I do not understand how these things are possible. I don’t understand how a lot of things about God are possible. I just trust Him, and accept them on faith.I do not expect you to do so, laymond. But I can state my beliefs – unlike the author of the linked text you provided – without resorting to logical fallacies like “If we exalt Jesus as God, then why not exalt Mary who after gave birth to Jesus.” Mary only claimed to be only His humble servant; she never claimed to be God.Jesus, in as many words, did.I’m done. My last word. Reply if you wish.But I’m done.
I will make this short, God never dies, Jesus did die. or somebody lied.
laymond, As an outsider here, you do realize that your unitarian beliefs falls outside all historic orthodox teaching passed from generation to generation. As Keith stated, there are many things about God that is hard wrap are little fallible minds around, the trinitarian natur of God is one. We except many things on faith, why not this for you. Just curious.
JP, I have the same reasons Barton Stone had way back when, “The bible” it hasn’t changed. I shall state the doctrine of the trinity and give my reasons why I can not receive it. Barton W. StoneQuotations from Address to the Christian Churches, Works of Elder B. W. Stone Vol. 1, 2nd Edition, James Mathes.That there is but one living and true God, is a plain doctrine of revelation. “We know that an Idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called Gods, whether in Heaven or in earth (as there be Gods many and Lords many). But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and [50] we by him.” 1 Cor. viii: 4-6. Also Deut. vi: 4. Mark xii: 29, etc.
JP, I would be glad to discuss my reasons for believing the way I do with you on either your blog or mine. I just don’t want to wake up one day as Barton Stone did and realize I had compromised my belief and maybe my soul in order to get along. I have one God that I worship, I don’t have three as most Christians today seem to, I don’t worship “A God of creation” “a God of salvation” and “a God of information” I believe my one God is capable of doing more than one thing. I will check your blog to see your answer.sorry Keith.
laymond, Would not expect you to change your views. It’s not my battle as I am not even sure I can call myself a Christian. If it makes you happy…then good for you, really.I can understand your view especially if you are a “bible only” Christian. One who reads the texts of the bible with a black and white mentality. However, to do so, you have to ignore the early church fathers, early church councils, the generations before us, the early christian creeds and what the church universal (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox) have taught since the time of Jesus.As I said, the trinitarian view is hard to grasp, but then again, there is much I do not grasp when it comes to God and the Christian faith.
Thanks JP for reinforcing my beliefs, by reminding me what I am rejecting is all man made.“However, to do so, you have to ignore the early church fathers, early church councils, the generations before us, the early christian creeds”I am proud to say that I do choose the bible over all man generated beliefs. I pray you can come to peace of mind in your journey, may God bless.
Keith said “I don’t know or care whether this belief is blind, divine, trinitarian, or misguided. It is simply the conclusion I draw for the reasons I have stated.I will be the first to confess that I do not understand how these things are possible. I don’t understand how a lot of things about God are possible.” Keith, I don’t mean to question your qualifications for the jobs you hold and for which I assume you get paid, but I do have a question, would you trust any professional, who would say “I don’t care if I’m right or wrong, that is what I believe” ?One more question, do you think someone with your attitude should be teaching others bible class in church?Oh bye the way, Keith I don’t teach bible class in church. I teach at home.
Laymond, I don’t believe Keith said that he didn’t care whether he was right or wrong. The way I interpreted his statement, it seems to me he is trying to say that he doesn’t know or care whether <>others<> may think his beliefs are “blind, divine, trinitarian, or misguided”; that he has studied the scriptures for himself; that he has reached for himself the most accurate conclusions he can draw from those scriptures.In this case, I’m not sure there’s a way to logically prove oneself right, whatever your beliefs are. If you knew with certainty, it wouldn’t be a belief/faith. So I’m not sure it’s fair to say that he doesn’t care whether he’s right or wrong, when, in reality, there’s not a way to know for sure whether he is or not. I think there are just some things about God that are beyond our ability to grasp. This is one of them.I’ll admit that I don’t know Keith very well. But I think I know him well enough to know that he believes that God wants each person to study the scriptures for themselves in order to come into a better understanding of and relationship with Him; that each person will give his/her own account to God of the way he/she lived based on his/her own beliefs; that regardless of what we know/understand/believe based on our study of the scriptures and our life experiences, we will each have to rely on the grace of God for all that we don’t know and the mistakes that we’ve all made.I’m sure it’s because of those reasons that I’ve never seen/heard of Keith being anything other than respectful of others’ beliefs, regardless of whether or not they differ from his own. Laymond, I’m also not sure it makes a difference where you are teaching someone, whether in a church building, or in your home, or on your blog! (That’s certainly where I’ve learned the most from Keith over the past 2 and ½ years…on his blog!) I’m not entirely sure how often Keith actually teaches at our church. That’s not exactly what we pay him to do. (I think I’ve heard more of him teaching BEFORE he actually worked for us, and maybe not quite as much now, but I’m not incredibly sure. I could be wrong.) Nevertheless, he is one that has stepped up and volunteered to help lead others as they study for themselves and try to come to a better knowledge and understanding of His word. And honestly, Laymond, I can’t think of anyone with a better attitude to learn from…someone who’s willing to admit that he doesn’t have all the answers or the “right” answer…but someone who has studied and is willing to share what he’s gained and is able to encourage others to do the same…to both study His Word and trust in His grace.
Laymond, I don’t know why you insist on making this personal. I handle communications for the church of which I’m a part: Web site, printed bulletin, e-mail updates, electronic sign out front, posters, worship visuals.I teach when asked, and I teach with an elder as my co-teacher. That is at my request. If you were a contributor at my church, I might understand a little better your dismay. But, well, you got no dog in this hunt.When I said, “I don’t know or care,” it’s because the subject of our discussion is part of the nearly-impenetrable mystery of God’s nature. How He can be both one and three is just as much a mystery to me as how He can be both just and merciful. It’s not something He expects us to be able to answer – like the questions He asked of Job. You know?
mmlace, I too have respect for Keith and his work in God’s kingdom, that is what surprised me so much about what he said. The main thing he said that stunned me was where he said he didn’t care if his belief was MISGUIDED, I can’t help but believe that is not so, I know he has gotten frustrated with my persistence, and somewhat angered at me, so he said what he did in retaliation.Keith, I’m sorry. but I do believe all who claim to be Christians do “have a dog in the fight” that said I won’t “hound” you anymore, I ask one favor of you before I relent and say I failed. Read the post on my blog and leave your opinion, and we will call it quits on the subject. reluctantly but I will.
laymond, I may be biting off more then I can chew, but why such persistence on the trinity issue? Do you believe it to be blasphemy?Who is Jesus to you?
JP; this is the second time I have promised Keith I would not discuss it again on his blog. I intend to stick to it this time. I ask God’sand Keith’s forgiveness for not sticking to it before. I would be glad to discuss my thoughts on the subject with you on my blog. just click on my name on comments it will take you there. leave a comment to show you are interested to talk.may God bless.