As Long As We’re on the Subject….

… you should read Jay Guin’s post on baptism, the Holy Spirit and salvation.

If this doesn’t either comfort you deeply with the expansiveness of God’s mercy and grace or rile your righteous indignation over the challenge to your justice-only vision of God … well, the link must have taken you to the wrong article.

54 thoughts on “As Long As We’re on the Subject….

  1. Keith, or Wendy, It seems to me you are two of those who believe that the “Holy Ghost” was meant for all who ask, if I am wrong, just say you are not among those who believe that.

    • continued from above, I hit the wrong button. Anyway if you believe this indwelling power is for all men, women , and children, when they are baptized, when did this miraculous thing begin? Please give one new testament example of either a woman, or child receiving “the holy ghost”. If you can’t give that example, why not? were they just to irresponsible, were there no female Christians, or just couldn’t open their mouth to ask for it?

      • Philip’s daughters? The women in the Corinthian church who were praying in and prophesying? Laymond, the promises of Jesus are enough for me, even without looking for NT examples. Nt examples are just that – examples. they are not prototypes of how God will work for all eternity.

  2. As far as I’m concerned, it began for believers in Christ on Pentecost:

    No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ” ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.” – Acts 2:16-18

    • I am still waiting for an independent example of a woman or child showing the powers of God given through the holy ghost. I believe I know why I haven’t received it. I guess I missed it but I don’r remember Philip’s daughters doing so. but I would like to see where it is.

      • “Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea a and stayed at the house of Philip b the evangelist, c one of the Seven. He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied.” – Acts 21:8-9

      • And the item dealing with women prophesying or praying:

        “Every man who prays or prophesies a with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies a with her head uncovered dishonors her head – it is just as though her head were shaved.” – 1 Corinthians 11:4-5

      “…of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. (Hebrew 6:2).
      It is obvious there were various baptism in the Bible. What were they? To whom did they apply? What was their purpose? Consider the following:
      1.- The Baptism of Moses (1 Cor. 10:2) The Journey of the Israelites from bondage in nEgypt to Canaan is a type of the Christian’s journey from bondage in sin to heaven. The passage of the Israelites through the Red Sea on this journey, with the water around them and the cloud over them serves as a prototype of the water baptism commanded by Christ and the apostles.
      2.- The Baptism of Suffering ( Matthew 20:22,23;Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50).
      Jesus anticipated his suffering which would be so overwhelming He Spoke of it as a baptism.
      3.- The Baptism of the Holy Spirit ( Mattew 3:11 b; Mark 1:8b; Luke 3:16b; John 1:33b; Acts 1:5; Acts 11:16). This was a promised baptism that was fulfilled in the apostles (Acts 2 ) and to the household of Cornelius (Acts 10) At no time was anyone ever commanded to be baptized in the Holy Spirit nor is it ever said a Holy Spirit baptism would put one into Christ. When the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit, things Jesus taugh were brought to their remembrance (John 14:26), and they were guided into all truth (John 16:13). At the household of Cornelius Holy Spirit baptism was to convince the Jews present that God accepted the Gentiles to be fellow heirs in the family of God (Acts 11:14-18). Holy Spirit baptism was not designed to continue through the centuries.

      4.- The Baptism of Fire ( Matthew 3:11; Luke 3:16) This baptism refers to the overwhelming punishment awaiting those who do not obey the Gospel,. It has to do with the destiny of the wicked. ( Note. Matthew 3:12).

      5.- The Baptism of John ( Matthew 3:6,7,12,13,16; Mt.16:21:25; Mark 1:4,5,8a,9; Mark 11:30; Luke 3:3,21; Luke 7:29,30; Luke 20:4; Acts 1:22; Acts 10:37, Acts 13:24; Acts 18:25; Acts 19:3,4; John 1:23,25,26,28,31, 33a, John 10:40; Acts 1:5a; 11:16.
      This was a water baptism administered to jews before the crucifixion of Christ. It was preceded by repentence and confession of sins (Mt. 3:2,6; Mark 1:4). Both John and the disciples of Jesus administrered it (Mt. 3:11; John 4:1,2). It was a means of preparing material for the approaching Kingdom. It is not in force today ( Acts 19:1-6).

      6.- The water Batism commanded by Jesus and the Apostles (Mt.28:19,20; Mark 16:16; John 3:5; Acts 2:38,41; Acts 8:12,13,16; Romans 6:3,4; 1 Cor. 1:13-17, 1 Cor.12:13; Galatians 3:27; Ephesians 4:4; Colossians 2:12; 1 peter 3:21).
      This is the baptism administered by the disciples on and after the day of Pentecost to penitent belivers for the remission of their sins. It is a vital part of the new birth and is the one baptism of which Paul Speaks in Ephesians 4:5. It stand between the lost alien sinner and pardon. It is the only baptism that applies in the present century.

      What about the “doctrine of baptism” of Hebrews 6:2?
      These probably refer to the Baptism of John, the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the baptism administered by the disciples on and after the day of Pentecost. No new baptism is suggested here.

      What about the baptism for the dead of 1 Cor. 15:29?
      This probably has reference to the water baptism administed by the disciples on and after the day of Pentecost to penitent believer when they anticipated their approaching deaths ( death to sin). Personal responsibility rules out the possibility of a proxy baptism for people who are already physically dead.

      What about a spirit baptism for alien sinner today?
      According to Paul there is now only one baptism (Ephesians 4:5). The water baptism administered by the disciples on and after the day of Pentecost to penitent believers is the one. It is the one that saves (Acts 2:38, 1 peter 3:21). The idea of a spirit baptism must surely grow out of a misunderstanding of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, yet even this baptism was never said to save anyone. The alien sinner needs to hear the gospel, believe it, repent of his sins, confess for the remission of his sins. HAVE YOU BEEN BAPTIZED FOR THE REMISSION OF YOUR SINS?

      1.- Delton Haun- Haun Publishing Co. P.O. Box 3426 Pasadena,Texas 77501.

  3. Act 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

    So being a prophet is definite proof of the indwelling “Holy Ghost” .

    Exd 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

    If I were to take the time, I could name many more “old testament prophets” and not so many in the new testament.

    Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
    NIV – Jhn 7:39 – By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

    I wonder why the (inspired translators) bothered to say this when they knew, Keith and Wendy, could disprove it.

    • If no one received the Holy Spirit before Christ breathed Him into His apostles, then Joseph did not receive Him (Genesis 41:38), Bezalel did not receive Him (Exodus 31:2), King David did not receive Him (Psalm 51).

      My thought – and this is just my thought – is that it was important in the new covenant era to demonstrate Jesus’ authority to give His Holy Spirit just as God had done under the old covenant. I know this rankles your ire, Laymond, but it goes to prove that the Word was one with God before He took on flesh and the name “Jesus.”

      • “Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.”

        I believe you have accused me of “picking, and choosing” what I believe, seems I’am not alone here.

      • Or does it simply mean that the Holy Spirit had not been given yet by Jesus?

        If I wrote that I had not yet voted because the polls were not open, would you assume that I had never ever voted before in my entire life?

        John 7:39 seems to describe an order in which things happened: first, Jesus was glorified, then He gave His Spirit.

        He gave His Spirit – as He had promised in John 14-17 – so that they would not be left alone.

      • Guys,

        Since the Bible declare that Deity indwell- Deity Indwell all who desire and do the will of God, the moment they desire and do His will (John 7:17)” anyone wills to do His will” Jesus respect our free will and does not force the human being to acept him like figuratively Speaking in Revelation 3:20 “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. looks like the human being has a inside doorknob and they need to will to do the will of our God. The Holy Spirit does not force the human Spirit to obey him. The way the Holy Spirit work together with the word of God (Warrior and the sword ) 1 peter 1:23. The man of sin need to will to die to sin and will to reborn in Christ.

        We are agree that the Holy Spirit dwell in the Christian who is faithfull (obey) and does the will of God.but the question is How? There are two ways to take it !

        Literal or a representative indwelling. The Nature of Deity. To understand this views, we need to Go back and define the
        mission of the Holy Spirit (Comforter ” Paraclete”, Clarify the promise of “the baptism of The Holy Spirt” and make a difference between ( Miraculous and Non-miraculous indwelling of the Holy Spirit) the ” Water baptism in act. 2:38-39 and what promise was for the children and all that are afar off “

  4. Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    (the key word here is “another”)
    It seems to me those who claim endwellment,”of the holy ghost” claim any spirit will do.any time the word spirit is used you act as if there is only one, and that one is what is being referred to.

    • “Another” paraclete would refer to Someone who would take Jesus’ place and role. He had been the One to dwell with them and walk beside them; after His departure, His Spirit would keep His presence among them.

      There is only One Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

      The key word here is “forever.” There’s just no getting around it.

      • So God was just joshing when He inspired Isaiah to write: “As for me, this is my covenant a with them,” says the LORD. “My Spirit, who is on you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouths of your children, or from the mouths of their descendants from this time on and forever,” says the LORD. (59:21)

      • Laymond what ended was ” The Power of the Holy Spirit promise by our lord Jesus in Mat. 3:11b. to reveal the New Testament (1 Cor. 13:8-10) “which” is something (NT Scriptures)” Not He or her”, Not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is forever as the father and the son. Jesus promise to us that he will be with us until the end of the world. Mat. 28:20. The Father is God, The Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God and they are agree. 1 John 5:6-8
        6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth:[a] the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

  5. Keith, there is just a small problem with you using Isaih 59-21 to dispute the teaching by the word.

    Isa 59:21 As for me, this [is] my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that [is] upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed’s seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

    “the word of the Lord, shall live forever”

  6. 1Cr 12:1 ¶ Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
    1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
    (what did Paul say here?, even the Lordship of Jesus was a gift from God , Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. )
    1Cr 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
    (let’s look at these gifts, wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles,
    1Cr 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
    ( I believe Paul is saying, early Christians, received Gifts, but not all gifts are given to one)
    (love is the greatest gift of all)
    1Cr 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away. (all of these great gifts will die, except the gift of love)

    1Pe 1:22 ¶ Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:
    1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
    1Pe 1:24 For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
    ( all the glory of man, will die)
    1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

  7. I believe many have not understood the purpose for “the comforter” spoken of by Jesus.It is plainly stated , this spirit”s function is to bring total recall to the apostles as to what Jesus has already told them, not to bring new things on his own.
    (whatsoever I have said unto you)(for he shall not speak of himself)( he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.)
    This does not sound like a new prophet, or leader, but a gift, given to the apostles, to aid in their works to come.

    Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    Jhn 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.

    • Laymond, if all of God’s will was completely disclosed and the close of Jesus’ mortal life, why did the Spirit continue to reveal things to the early believers … such as “Don’t go to Bithynia; go to Macedonia”?

      Again – for the umpteenth time – I’m not advocating that the Spirit reveals additional instructions from God about salvation for mankind, but that He stll has a role in providing clarity about what is written, getting proclaimers and listeners together, helping recall the truth and phrase the message, provide unity, seal the believer, provide access and intercession in prayer, provide unity and comfort and boldness, convict the listener, and confirm the word by His power – and other purposes right there in scripture.

      These are no mere “figurative” acts that can be provided by scripture alone, but with the direct aid of the Spirit who inspired them.

      • Act 16:7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.

        Is this another sign of an evil spirit, who took away the choice of others, Keith you really need to make up your mind whether an endwelling spirit can control what you do or not.

      • I don’t believe scripture says there was even a moment when Paul and his party could not have disobeyed and have gone to Ithynia anyway. It just wasn’t in their nature to disobey, any more than it is in the Spirit’s to control them against their will. Their will simply changed.

        Just as we surely believe that there are tiny fractions of God’s will that can change, or our prayers to Him on many occasions would be pointless, wouldn’t they? Jesus’ prayer in the garden wasn’t pointless, but poignant. His will bent to the Father’s – “if it is possible” – and He learned ibedience by experience, firsthand (Hebrews 5:8) and having been tempted, is able to sympathize with our weaknesses (Hebrews 4:15.).

  8. Bob Brandon ask?
    Well, then: what do you think Jay is writing, whether you agree or disagree, and why?

    And these questions are for you.
    posted in Baptism, An Exploration: Water Baptism and the Spirit
    Posted on January 17, 2011 by Jay Guin

    Jay said : “The “promise” in 2:29 refers to the “promise” is 2:33 — the “promise of the Holy Spirit.” I don’t know if is a mistype Acts 2:39 and about “Isaiah 2:23” my bible does not have that versus “23” Just until 22. Well, if you read the whole context of Isaiah 44:1-3 is talking about the promise given to Father Abraham in Genesis 18:10 the Isaiah spoke by the Holy Spirit things from the future about the House of Jacob (Jews) The passage that are mention in Acts 2 by the apostle peter was (Joel 2:28) ““ And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. The apostle peter made reference to this passage of the Old Testament . The prophet Isaiah is know as the messianic prophet and Joel also prophet. They remind the people of Israel about the promise made to Father Abraham (Genesis 18:10, 14,Gen. 18:18,Gen. 22:18, Gen. 26:4,Psalms 72:17). The apostles Clarify the teaching about the promise read Romans 9:9 “For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.” Galatians 3:8 “And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. Romans 15:8
    Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers, (John 4:21-23) Luke 24:46-48 “ Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise[a] from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things.” This promise was giving to Father Abraham and was carried by the prophets until was accomplished in Acts 2:39 “ For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” It has been a misunderstanding about this “promise” because previous to this passage is mention the “Gift of the Holy Spirit” V.38, The question is : Was the gift of the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit himself? The Gift is something that is free.We read in Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. According to this passage the “Gift “ is eternal Life. What confuse some brethren is that the powerful message of the Gospel was preach in the pentecost with the Manifestation of the Holy Spirit in Acts chapter 2, the apostle Paul clarify this later in Ephesians 1:13 “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,” (2 Corinthians 1:22) “The seal of the Holy Spirit” what is that seal? Is the receipt or prove that when you were baptize into Christ you belong to Christ. Then is when you receive certainty of been born again, 1 Peter 1:23 “ having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, the “word of God abides forever” This is the sword of the Spirit (Ephesians 6:17) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; The Holy Spirit work together with the word, Jesus said the Holy Spirit, “when he is come, will convict the world in respect of sin (John16:8 ASV). But how does the Spirit convic of sin?…by the law is the knowledge of Sin (Rom. 3:20; cf. Romans 7:7). The Holy Spirit as a person, uses law as an instrument to convict of sin. The medium through which the Holy Spirit accomplish his mission is the word of God. There is not other way to convict of sin.
    One should keep in mind the distinction between the Spirit and the words of the spirit; the Spirit is a person; the word is an instrument. People are not converted by the Word only nor by the Spirit only, but by the Spirit acting through the Word. The Word of God is the instrument employed by the Holy Spirit in dealing with the hearts of men.
    The First time we hear about “the promise of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament” Is mentioned in Acts 1:3-5 told by Luke the inspired writer. There is background about this affirmation without saying the word “promise”, Let’s see the evidences This event was prophesied by Isaiah and Joel (Joel 2:28,Isaiah 44:3) carrying this event until the first Century repeated by John the baptizer ( Mark 1:8 says “. I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” At first Looks, Look like John the baptizer is giving the promise, but is he giving the promise? Absolutly, Not. he is giving testimony about Jesus and his ministry “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit” also mentioned in the others gospels like In Matthew 3:11 “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire” This was said by: John the Baptizer. Looks that John is talking about “the Baptism of the Holy Spirit” to understand this we need to study what was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit ( Mattew 3:11 b; Mark 1:8b; Luke 3:16b; John 1:33b; Acts 1:5; Acts 11:16). This was a promised baptism that was fulfilled in the apostles (Acts 2 ) and to the household of Cornelius (Acts 10) At no time was anyone ever commanded to be baptized in the Holy Spirit nor is it ever said a Holy Spirit baptism would put one into Christ. When the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit, things Jesus taugh were brought to their remembrance (John 14:26), and they were guided into all truth (John 16:13). At the household of Cornelius Holy Spirit baptism was to convince the Jews present that God accepted the Gentiles to be fellow heirs in the family of God (Acts 11:14-18). Holy Spirit baptism was not designed to continue through the centuries.The purpose of the “baptism of the Holy Spirit also known as the “Power of the Holy Spirit” Accomplish his purpose read Mark 16:20, Hebrews 2:3-4. If you read the beginning of chapter 4 says about ” Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard”.
    Jay said:” Therefore, when Cornelius received the Spirit, as an outpouring, before baptism, (Cornelius was saved before baptism).” Is true that somebody can be saved before be baptize scripturally? The water baptism commanded by Jesus and the Apostles (Mat. 28:19-20; ; Mark 16:16; John 3:5; Acts 2:38,41; Acts 8:12,13,16; Romans 6:3,4; 1 Cor. 1:13-17, 1 Cor.12:13; Galatians 3:27; Ephesians 4:4; Colossians 2:12; 1 peter 3:21).
    This is the baptism administered by the disciples on and after the day of Pentecost to penitent belivers for the remission of their sins. It is a vital part of the new birth and is the one baptism of which Paul Speaks in Ephesians 4:5. It stand between the lost alien sinner and pardon. It is the only baptism that applies in the present century.

    Jay said “And the outpouring of the Spirit meant that Cornelius was just as saved as Peter.” Indeed: read Peter’s sermon and it’s about Jesus and about the outpouring of the Spirit. It’s not about baptism — which isn’t mentioned but once. “— Is that once : Acts 2:38-39? About who is the Gospel of Christ? What was the commandment given to the Apostles according Mat. 28:19,20? All the Jews from every nation under heaven were attending to the Pentecost feast , we read in Acts 2:41 “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them , Not all the Jews were baptized from under the heaven even they saw and they were present and heard the preaching of peter about Jesus the Messiah, they hardened their hearts. (Isaiah 6:8-10, John 12:39-41 ) That is why not all the Jews under the Nations received the Gospel of Christ first time preached by peter with the power of the Holy Spirit, It was written by the prophets! The Gospel opened the Door of the Kingdom of God to the Jews and later open that door to the Gentiles, The case of Cornelius as recorded in Acts 10 was another miraculous manifestation of the Holy Spirit, but does not mean they were save before baptism the evidence is what is told by the apostle peter in .
    Acts 11:15-16 “Now the apostles and brethren who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God” but just read Versus 15,16 Where Peter is retelling what happened at Cornelius household “15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
    What was say before in the context of versus 15, Let’s read versus 14 says “who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.” What were those words? The Gospel for sure. (Rom. 1:16), The manifestation of the Holy Spirit was to open the door of the Kingdom to the Gentiles. Cornelius and his household were the first Gentiles in the Kingdom of God (the Church) They were added as like the about three thousand souls Jews from the Pentecost. The promise of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit also known as “The power of the Holy Spirit” because of his supernatural manifestation. There is not doubt that the Holy Spirit dwell in the Christian as the Father and the son dwell too.Since the Bible declares that Deity indwells- Deity indwells. Deity indwells all who desire and do completely the will of God. Six verses say the Father is in the Christian ( 1 Cor.6:16; Eph.4:6; 1Jn 3:24, 1 Jn4:4, 1Jn 4:12-13, 1Jn 4:15-16). Eleven verses say Christ is in the Christian (Jn. 6:56; Jn 15:4-5; Jn. 17:23,26; Rom 8:10; 2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 2:20; Gal.4:19;Eph. 3:17;Col. 1:27; Col.3:11; 1 peter 3:15). Six verses say the Holy Spirit is in the Christian (Jn 14:17; Rom 8:9; 1 Cor. 3:16; 1 Cor. 6:19; 2 Tim. 1:14) Twenty-three passages reveal that the Deity indwells the Christian.But again it is asked. How?” “ In what manner does Deity dwell? The answer is: “The Father, son and the Holy Spirit indwell the Christian in the same manner – through the Word of God. (1 Peter 1:23)” We need to make a Distinction between “word only” and “through the word” . When we use “ Through” we are saying that there is a “medium” that is the way the Godhead works!

  9. Keith, please read Patrick’s latest post and tell me where he is wrong. I don’t always agree with Patrick, as I don’t always agree with you, but there is no other conclusion to come to, except the one Patrick has finally arrived at.

    • Laymond, I don’t know who is patricks? But we can know for what he write and do? I don’t know what he promote but As soon as I can I will give my feedback about his spirit “Notice Not with capital S ” of man ( Not Holy Spirit “Teachings”) 1 Corinthians 2:9-11 “But as it is written:
      “ Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
      Nor have entered into the heart of man
      The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.” But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. The Scriptures has been under attack since the first time was published by “Secularist Humanists” like Voltaire et al. Since God is the author of all truth Romans 3:3-5 “For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? 4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:

      “ That You may be justified in Your words,
      And may overcome when You are judged.”[a]

      5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) “I am using a human argument” Since God gave us all “truth” The word of God Jn 17:17 and God santify us in his truth that is the word of God. Our God reveal us all concerning 2 Peter 1:3 ” as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue” God warning us trough his Holy Spirit in 1 Timothy 4:1-3 “1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. also about perilous times in 2 Timothy 3:1-3 “1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good” That’s our God told us 1 John 4:1″ Beloved, do not believe every spirit (man’s teachings), but test the spirits (Teachings), whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

      1 Corinthians 2:13-15 “These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[a] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. We need to be alert about what the apostles receive to share with us as is mention in 1 John 1:1-4 “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your[a] joy may be full.” We need to use the whole armour of God (Ephesian 6:10-20) in Hebrews 2:1-3 we recieve advise from the inspired writers ” Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,

  10. Laymond, I’m guessing that you’re referring to, and as always Patrick is far more “versed” on these matters than I am.

    There are, actually, other conclusions one could come to, but Patrick’s is probably the most clear-minded among them.

    That calls for being clear-minded when drawing conclusions from conclusions, however. He points out that the Muslim conclusion that “the Bible itself says it’s wrong” is a muddied one built on prejudice. (I think he calls it “sad, but silly.”)

    To conclude that everything – or even anything – in Mark 16 is false because it may not have been written by Mark is equally muddy-headed. We have no guarantees that Mark even wrote it, though the tradition is sound and pretty much undisputed. Biblical writers didn’t autograph their works, though. What one can conclude is that there are two items in it which are not precisely corroborated by other scripture: drinking poison and the salvific weight of belief coupled or not coupled with baptism. They are, as Patrick points out, unparalleled.

    Paul did shake a viper off of himself and was unharmed (Acts 28:3), but it was not part of any kind of public worship service that called on the Holy Spirit to protect him; it just happened. To conclude from it – or Mark 16 – that such rites are somehow required in worship is muddy-headed thinking.

  11. As you might remember I questioned you about that very”scripture” earlier in this discussion, Your answer I believe, was “don’t test God” That gave me the idea that you believed “God wrote that passage”

    I was not only asking your opinion on Mark, but your opinion as to where and how Patrick said we received the Gospels. Don’t get me wrong, I agree with Patrick, or it might be said he, finally sees it my way. He and I have had discussions about this very thing, and he took a far different view, than he espoused here.

    • I don’t think Patrick’s views have changed very much, if at all.

      Scripture is still scripture, no matter how we got it. It is what we have been given in a tangible way in order to know of God. The Spirit is what we have been given in order to know God.

      Did I mean “God wrote that passage” when I answered you “Don’t test God”? Nope. I meant what I said above, that promises in scripture are for gifts that are to be shared to the benefit of others and the glory of God; not for self-aggrandizement. That’s testing God. That’s at the heart of what Satan was asking Jesus to do in the desert: use His gifts for Himself, for His own glory.

      That principle is what led me to the theory that what was happening in the assemblies in Corinth was the problem of fakery of gifts (which I wrote about a few years back in The Problem With Tongues. I don’t mind being proven wrong about that (as long as it’s from scripture), because it’s a theory and I call it one.

  12. Not only has Patrick’s views seem to have changed, yours don’t seem to be very stable either. are you actually going to say, you or Patrick, have never said, all the bible is scripture, and all scripture was by inspiration. Don’t make me look up the many times both of you have written this.
    This is what you said in this very string of comments. “January 20, 2011 at 11:58 am | #18 Quote You’re right, Laymond. I pick the entirety of scripture and I choose to believe all of it.”

  13. I stand by what I’ve said. The authorship of the person who wrote scripture with pen in hand is not particularly relevant to the fact that the Spirit inspired it.

    I don’t know what you think Patrick is saying or what I’m saying by generally agreeing with him, but it seems to bear little resemblance to what we have actually said.

    As you and I have discussed in another (seemingly unending) series of comments on this blog, I will still teach 1 John 5:8 as the King James Version renders it from the Vulgate because what it says is not in conflict with other scripture … but I when I teach it, I will point out that the truth of it was almost certainly added about 1200 to 1300 years after the original manuscript was written.

    It appears to me, Laymond, that you view scripture looking for chinks, ways to make it contradict itself, excuses for disregarding for what is not convenient to what you wish to believe. I do not make that accusation lightly, brother, and I do so in love with a deeply-felt prayer that you will begin to see it as God’s effort to communicate to you His will, and sufficient to the task.

  14. Patrick said, and I suppose you agreed (because Patrick, said it) with what he said.
    “Let’s start by discussing how we got our gospels. The idea I had when I was 12 was that four guys sat down — in different places, of course — and God had them write down what He said. It was, suffice it to say, far more complicated than that. Jews had a rich body of literature, certainly, but they mainly spread their stories and legacy via oral transmission. This was also true in the early church”
    ( it seems this agrees with what I have said for years, diligent men wrote the bible from their memory, and memory of others) No whispering in the ear, no holy ghost help.) (your proof of that is just like your proof of the trinity, non existent.
    This is nothing like the arguments by both you and him, that Paul’s writings were all “inspired by God” when I would raise a question. Paul’s writings were “scripture” therefore God told him what to write. If you insist I can take the time to research both of your comments and post them for you. (but you know what you said)
    As for looking for “chinks” I don’t have to look far. I just go to Patrick’s and your blog. I have no argument with what the bible says, just with what you say it says.

    • Oh my stars.

      You think that a writer of scripture can’t write from memory AND be inspired by the Holy Spirit at the same time?

      Where did you get that idea, Laymond?

      I don’t believe Patrick is – and I know I’m not – a proponent of the theory that the Holy Spirit dictated every word of scripture to each writer or whispered in their ears. There are too many differences of writing style among the writers of scripture for some of their own nature, character, purpose and point of view that can’t be accounted for with the dictational theory of inspiration.

      As I’ve said in more posts than I’d care to count now, God operates in partnership with His people under the new covenant.

      “As God’s co-workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain.” ~ 2 Corinthians 6:1

      “I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.” ~ Galatians 2:20

      • Keith that has been the prevailing argument as long as the “inspiration” of the bible has been claimed. “God wrote it he just used someone else’s hand.”

        If you look at the two times the word inspiration is used, once in the “old” and once in the “new” it means breathed by God, or spoken by God.
        So, I take it that you really don’t believe all scripture was written, by inspiration of God,anymore than I do.
        If you do how was it done. Was it written through hear say, as Patrick suggested.

      • Laymond, if you can’t put your faith in what scripture says – and only what it says, not what you ir Patrick or I or anyone else THINKS it says – then you’ll never know what you believe. You’ve got nothing to hang your faith hat on.

        2 Timothy 3:16 says scripture is God-breathed, not God-spoken, not God-whispered, not God-dictated. “Breathed.” Just as God breathed life into Adam and Jesus breathed His Spirit on the apostles. The Spirit gives life (John 6:63; Romans 8; 2 Corinthians 3:6). He breathes life through the word (John 5:24; 1 John) and through His residence in us (again, Romans 8).

        When one resists or quenches the Spirit, one is resisting and quenching life, brother, and does so at one’s own peril.

  15. Keith, actually the word breathed is not in the original Of 2 Tim 3:16 the word used is – theopneustos – which actually means -inspired by God. but if we go back to the old testament we see how God did this. and we can assume Paul was talking of old world inspiration, since he was talking to Timothy about the book he had been raised reading.
    (the one and only other time, the word inspiration is used in the bible)
    Job 32:8 But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
    – nĕshamah- breath or spirit

    Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah —
    Gen 13:14 And the LORD said unto Abram —
    Gen 18:13 And the LORD said unto Abraham
    Gen 31:3 And the LORD said unto Jacob
    Exd 4:19 And the LORD said unto Moses

    2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
    (in OLD TIME) most people conveniently leave that part out.

    I can’t imagine where one would get the idea that being inspired by God, meant he spoke to them.

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