Why I Believe God Doesn’t Want A Gay Lifestyle For Us – #1

I tried to be honest with my readers in this post that I don’t believe God wants a gay lifestyle for anyone, and that I would be willing to say that to anyone. I also related what I am sure God doesn’t want for any of us, and that is judging each other. If you’ve read my blog for any length of time, you know the reasons why I’m certain of that.

But I would like to share the reasons why I believe God doesn’t want us practicing a gay/homosexual lifestyle (choose your preferred term), and by that I mean, engaging in homosexual acts/intercourse. I will stick to scripture in this series of posts, and warn you ahead of time that I am not a biblical languages scholar, have not read widely on the subject, and am not interested in being locked into a preconception that I’ve already held. I just want to know what God says in scripture, what He does not say, and what are reasonable conclusions that can be drawn based on that. I’ve tried to keep an open mind on the question, and what I’m sharing is the conclusions I’ve come to.

You need to come to your own conclusions after your own study and prayer and fasting and desert time. You need to, even if you don’t know, care about, love or hate someone who identifies herself or himself as gay. Because you might, and God still loves them, and their souls are as precious to Him as yours.

So here’s reason number one.

Genesis 19. The cry against Sodom and Gomorrah had reached the ears of the Lord (see the previous chapter) because of its evil. Two angels visit Sodom so that the Lord can see for Himself.

Please don’t ask me to explain that. I don’t have a clue. We think of God as being able to see all from wherever He is — presumably heaven — but in this case, He visits by these proxies while He stays with Abraham. Perhaps it has something to do with the severity of the evil that these cries have charged Sodom with committing, and the reliability of two or three witnesses that we find recommended in scripture. Perhaps it has something to do with God’s personal aversion to evil. Maybe His very presence there would have caused judgment and obliteration … before Abraham’s nephew Lot and his household could be rescued. I’m guessing, and only guessing.

What was that outcry God heard? Scripture doesn’t say. Whom did it come from? The Bible doesn’t tell us.

But when the men/angels come to investigate, Lot is at the gate and tries to turn them aside from entering the city/fortress. (Originally, he had camped outside Sodom; it would seem that he built a house with a door there.) He has to persuade them not to spend the night in the square. Why? I think we’re left to draw the conclusion that if they had been ordinary men, they would have been in danger from the evil within.

Instead, the men from all over the city come to Lot’s house and their idea of hospitality is not the same as his. They surround the house and call out to Lot: “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

Some have argued that their initial intent was rape. Okay, I’ll grant that as a possibility. But although there is a term for rape in the language of the scripture as originally written, it doesn’t appear here. They’re just asking. Lot goes out, shuts the door behind him. There’s no indication that he was in danger; he shut the door behind him because the men were asking for his guests. Lot tries his powers of persuasion to dissuade them.

Personally, I think the offer of his engaged virgin daughters is made in jest, perhaps in an attempt to lighten the mood of the tense situation. He calls them his friends. Everyone there knows that their interest is not in his engaged daughters. It’s a tasteless joke, agreed — but possibly a desperate one. When they threatened Lot, the men/angels pulled him inside. Their threat against Lot and his guests at this point has the implied violence associated with rape. At any rate, things went south fast. These men are struck blind, and the next day after Lot, his immediate family and his guests escape before sunrise, fire from the sky (burning sulfur) rains down and completely destroys the city. (His future sons-in-law remained behind, thinking he was joking. Apparently Lot didn’t have a real developed sense of humor.) The refugees are instructed by the men/angels to keep moving; not to look back. It was too much to ask. Lot is granted respite closer than the angels preferred. Looking back at the firestorm destroying her home and doubtless her friends, Lot’s wife is transformed into what is described as “a pillar of salt.”

This fire was “from the Lord.” Did He destroy the cities for the attempt at rape, or the idea that hospitality should include homosexual intercourse, or for more? Well, definitely for more than either or both of those things. Isaiah 3 says that Sodom paraded its sins; the prophet is building on a metaphor that Israel has become as wicked as Sodom and Gomorrah, and names many other sins, perhaps parallel to those of the doomed cities. Jeremiah takes up that metaphor several times, too, against pagan nations. Ezekiel 16 says the sins of Sodom (exceeded by Israel) were arrogant self-indulgence, neglect of the poor and denial of justice. But these sins do not exclude nor negate those recorded in Genesis; they simply supplement and exacerbate them.

My point is that Lot was, in those patriarchal pre-Mosaic Law times, trying to protect his guests from the intrusion of unwanted attention. That attention included the offer of homosexual intercourse. If the guests/men/angels were traveling alone and Lot considered it culturally/morally/ethically acceptable for people to engage in homosexual intercourse, then he would have had no reason to go out and dissuade his friends from making the offer; if the encounter had started as a threat of rape, he probably wouldn’t have gone outside to reply.

That’s my thinking. You’re free to disagree; but this is only one of several reasons I find in scripture that tell me God doesn’t want a gay lifestyle for anyone; the first that touches on the question directly.

(Why didn’t I begin with Genesis 2? Yes, I believe God created man male and female for procreation to take place through sex — and He put pleasure in the mix so that it was also for recreation. Sex is meant to seal a bond of intimacy between man and wife that is described nowhere in scripture as meant for any other relationship. But I consider the phrase “Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve” to be so trivializing of something deeply sacred, and so belittling and insulting to the intelligence of anyone who has heard it, that I’ve elected not to go there. Only two people existed in the context of these verses; that it speaks of the single complex relationship between them (later known as marriage) is inevitable. Other people would appear later in scripture, and other relationships. The issue in this context cannot be whether a heterosexual monogamous relationship is the only one in which sex is blessed and permitted by God; there could not have been any other because that was the only kind of sexual relationship possible. So the permissibility or blessing of other sexual relationships cannot possibly be in view here.)

Now, once again, perspective: None of us is sinless. None of us is immune to sexual temptation — to temptation generally. As I’ve said in previous posts, our call is not to judge but to love. If we’re going to discuss matters on which we disagree, it must be in love and humility. If we do not wish to be judged, we must not judge.

There is ample evidence that some people have a predilection to prefer same-sex intercourse, and most don’t. A few have no preference. The evidence about why is inconclusive at this point. To say that people choose their innate sexual taste is simply not realistic. But to say that what people choose to do with that sexual preference and how they act upon it is a matter of choice — that is inarguably accurate. And nothing in scripture persuades me that we are judged by God over what tempts us — but that we are judged when we act selfishly, against His will.

My desire in this series is to discern His will in this matter.

I am convinced that He wants what is best for us — all of us.

33 thoughts on “Why I Believe God Doesn’t Want A Gay Lifestyle For Us – #1

  1. I just hate the term “gay lifestyle”. DSG people have jobs, go to the superrmarket, love their families and live much the same as heterosexual people. But the term “gay lifestyle” implies that their sex/gender/orientation makes all of their lives alien and different to ours.

  2. I’m open to suggestions – I have a straight lifestyle and am not offended by people using that term about me, but I’m not in the minority and I try to be sensitive to people who are. Lots of GLBT folks celebrate the way they live with that term (though I’m not sure it even applies to all of them!), and I was trying to accommodate that preference with the term I’ve seen used. They’re not alien to us, but they are different; just as men and women are different; people of different races have cultural differences and sometimes different ranges of skin color. It’s a delicate subject, I know. I’m uncomfortable with “homosexual” because (see linked previous post above) there’s no real consensus on what is covered by it: desire, practice, both, either, or whatever one wants it to mean. Help!

    • Lots of DSG or LGBTQI people live quite conventional lives and don’t celebrate their sexuality/gender/orientation. Homosexual isn’t a good term – it excludes those who are LBTQI… It IS a delicate subject, and the more I read and interact with my LGBTQI friends and family, the more complicated and delicate it becomes. Keith, what’s your motivation for this series? Are you hoping to dissuade LGBTQI people from becoming sexually active?

  3. I JUDGE PEOPLE!!! That’s not a confession it’s a declaration! Not all people, just you folks that call yourselves Christians. I do it righteously not self-righteously, and so should you if you’re a Christian! I’ll go even farther, it’s your responsibility! To say you are sure God doesn’t want us to judge anyone doesn’t seem to be consistant with the scriptures. I’m I to believe you feel it is not your responsibility judge your wife or children’s behavior when they are acting ungodly? No christian wants to take their conviction about judging that far do they? They might cite other responsibilities to justify it, or that your relationship with your family is a different situation. No! What’s different is that people today lack the closeness in relationships that God expects of us! 1 Cor. 5:9-13 When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. But I wasn’t talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or are greedy, or cheat people, or worship idols. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. I meant that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or is a drunkard, or cheats people. Don’t even eat with such people. It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning. God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, “You must remove the evil person from among you.”
    Now, I’ll grant you there are many warnings in the Bible about unrighteous ways people judge. Like: Do not judge motives of others because you cannot know them. Do not show partiality or prejudice in you judging. Do not hide your own guilt by condemning others. Do not take God’s place as lawgiver and then judge your brother based on your own decrees.
    One of the most often misquoted verses in the Bible is Matthew 7:1—“Judge not, that you be not judged” brings us to another “warning” not prohibition! Sadly, it is not only among the most frequently quoted verses in the Bible, but also is one of the most abused verses in all of Scripture. Its exploitation becomes clear when the entire context of Matthew 7 is studied more carefully. Throughout Matthew chapters 5-7 (often referred to as the Sermon on the Mount), Jesus publicly criticized the Jewish scribes and Pharisees for their hypocrisy.
    In Matthew 6:1-4, Jesus instructed us not to do charitable deeds…“as the hypocrites do” (to be seen of men). In 6:5-8, Jesus told us not to pray…“like the hypocrites” (to be heard of men). In 6:16-18, Jesus taught us not to fast…“like the hypocrites” (to be seen of men). Likewise, in Matthew 7:1-5, Jesus was teaching us that judging another is wrong…when that judgment is hypocritical. Don’t judge others to make yourself look better, or hold others up to a standard you don’t hold yourself up to!
    The popular and politically correct idea that “all judging is wrong” is anti-biblical. Those who teach that Jesus was condemning all judging in Matthew 7:1, are ignoring the context of the passage, as well as the numerous verses throughout the rest of the Bible which teach that judging the sinful lifestyles of others is necessary.
    Matt.18:15 If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.
    I hope some of you would love me enough to judge me then confront me in love if I’m involved in sinful behavior. I’m losing faith in my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ as I hear them misquote Matthew 7 on a daily bases. I have confidence only in my wife to love me this way, as all others have seem to be fooled by Satan to think judging me is wrong. I would hate to think how little I would have grown without her loving judgment of me and my actions. I claim to be a Christian; your judgment today is to sharpen me as iron sharpens iron! I will not neglect my duty to lovingly judge you. If you believe judging others is wrong, I hope your offended by God’s quoted above, you’re supposed to be!

    • Ron, in an environment where (at least in 2007, Barna research), 91% of young people said Christianity has an anti-gay image and 87% felt that Christianity is judgmental, how effective will we be if we begin by proudly proclaiming that “I JUDGE PEOPLE!”?

      Our responsibility is to judge sin, not people. Our responsibility is to love people, not sin.

      To coin yet another aphorism which risks triteness, it’s as simple as that.

      When you go to speak with someone about sin, it is because you love and are called to love — not because you are called to judge them. If you go into such a conversation with that attitude, you’ve defeated yourself and your opportunity to persuade them.

      I’m not ignoring the context of Matthew 7:1, but I do see it differently (as I have written here and elsewhere). We’re called to a perfect example — Jesus, who came not to judge the world but to save it. That’s our mission while we’re in the flesh, to save and not to judge. He will judge when the time is right.

      I love you, brother. I see this very differently than you do because I see little chance of succeeding in persuading someone by holding the mission of judgment as having priority over the mission of love. I’m hoping you just haven’t been exposed to this way of looking at the verses in view here, and are willing to try to.

      • kb, I would agree that our attitude is important. We can’t slam people and expect to be heard. But, if we are asked, “do you believe that this lifestyle is sinful, we must answer by repeating what scripture says, yes it is. We can’t give people false hope. We must tell them the truth. To do so is not judging, God’s word has already judged the lifestyle. 1 Cor 6 tells us who, if they practice such things will not enter the kingdom of God. It’s our job to tell them the good news, and that is if they change and are washed in the blood of Christ, they too can enter the kingdom of God. You stated that you see very little chance of succeeding when it’s the mission of judgement and not love, I would agree, but Peter in Acts 2 used both judgement and out of love he preached, and it worked very well.

    • ” Don’t judge others to make yourself look better, or hold others up to a standard you don’t hold yourself up to!
      No that is not the standard we are held to , unless you are perfect in all things, as Jesus was perfect, you have no right to judge others in the way the command refered to, no standing at all to judge. read the title of this blog. if you follow Jesus example you don’t even have the right to not associate with them.

      • What does 1 Cor. 5:9-13 say to you then? Interpret it for me. As far as Jesus example, can you give me an example of Jesus dealing with a member of the Jewish faith in the midst of a sinful act that he doesn’t confront them with the expectation of repentance? If you analyse each situation you will see he deals with each group differently.

  4. The problem in Sodom seems to be more about rape than homosexuality. I am sure that you do not see them as one in the same. So why use the example in an article about a lifestyle?

    • Maybe I was unclear above, kb, but I believe the original objection that Lot had to his neighbors’ intrusion was not necessarily under circumstances of threatened rape, but of offered homosexual intercourse. It may well have become rape when they began taunting and insulting him as their judge, but still the term for rape does not appear in the passage (as it does in Genesis 34:2, Deuteronomy 22, Judges 19, etc.).

      • Hard to imagine that the description used in that passage describes a homosexual relationship Keith as the situation in no way seems consensual. I find the comparison to be similar to the one that people sometimes make between homosexuality and pedophilia. Simply does not, IMO, hold water,

      • So you think Lot was brave enough to go outside his house and take a stand under the threat of gang rape? That’s pretty brave. And the angels let him? That’s almost foolhardy. It seems to me that the threat occurred later, after negotiation failed.

    • Agreed, Bob. Ezekiel 16 says that Sodom’s sin was inhospitality. That fits in with the threatened gang rape of the angels, NOT consensual homosexual acts. The word for rape might not have been used but the context is most certainly rape, and not homosexuality. The fact that Lot offers his virgin daughters is further proof that the marauding mob was intent on homosexual rape as a means of exerting power and being generally depraved. If they were homosexuals, then girls would have no appeal for them.

      • On the other hand, Jude 7 indicates Sodom and Gomorrah were guilty of sexual sin: fornication and pursuit of “other/strange flesh.” It doesn’t seem limited to rape, a crime of force which is also sexual, nor to homosexuality.

      • Keith, what I get from the Genesis account is that Sodom and Gomorrah were brutal cities where degradation and all sorts of brutal behaviour was the norm. That is a far cry from a monogamous homosexual relationship.

  5. Keith, at issue was your statement that you were sure God doesn’t want us to judge anyone! My response with its declaration, I judge people, was a statement of truth not a motto of my life goal. I carefully explained which people (Christians), with what kind of heart and attitude I did it with. More importantly, I attempted to illustrate from scriptures that this is actually a responsibility between Christians. Loving fellow Christians is also! Far, far greater time and energy of mine is spent loving others as you see it. But there is a small amount of my time devoted to loving others with correction, which requires judging their actions. Judging is not a lack of love, God is love and he will judge. He is a both/and God and his word instructs us to be that with fellow Christians. That’s my point in my response.
    A semantic game can be played about a difference between judging the sin, not the sinner, but seriously how do you judge something to be sin? God’s already declared what sin is and isn’t. You’re judging a person’s actions to be sinful, no matter how you play the game.
    Why do I take issue with your statement?
    1. Because it denies what I clearly see to be a responsibility of Christians.
    2. The world wants acceptance of sinful behavior. There is a desire for those outside the church to have it look more like the world. Many people reject the need for transformation or they do they desire it.
    The Barna study you quote regarding the church being judgmental has a big flaw. It assumes that the reason 87% of young people feel that way is because the church is in fact judgmental! It doesn’t account for how it’s portrayed in the media when some radical Christian group is protesting, or by atheist college instructors with agendas, or by their own guilt and rebellion. I don’t think anyone would deny that these factors directly affect those numbers. The statistic does pose a real problem for the church though! The answer I believe is personal evangelism. We have neglected this so much in the last several decades, that alone could be contributing to that data.
    The letter to the church in Pergamum is a good study for the church today, we are moving at a fast pace toward tolerating sin and false teaching in the church.
    Lastly, thank you for your passion for people! It’s huge as evident!

  6. Ron, you said, “A semantic game can be played about a difference between judging the sin, not the sinner, but seriously how do you judge something to be sin? God’s already declared what sin is and isn’t. You’re judging a person’s actions to be sinful, no matter how you play the game.”

    It’s not a game. It’s defining an attitude. Your attitude is that judging others is “a responsibility of Christians.” My attitude is that loving others is a responsibility of Christians, and that includes judging whether their actions are wrong.

    How do you judge something to be sin? God hasn’t declared everything to be either sin or not. Determining what is sin is a matter of discernment. You won’t find the concept of abortion in the Bible. It’s not there. You have to use discernment to determine whether and/or when abortion is sinful. You have to judge it to be sin, or not.

    If there’s a flaw in the Barna study, it isn’t a matter of assuming. It clearly states that it is a measure of perception. Perception might as well be reality in the minds of people, and to be effective we need to take it into account.

    • But God has declared this lifestyle to be sin. We judge peoples actions and words all the time. Thats the only way to live in a civil society. Christ came to seek and save the lost, all are lost until they turn (repent) and come to Jesus in humble obedience. When we have examples of God knowing someone in the womb, and we know it’s sin to murder the innocent, we can discern that abortion is sinful. With sexual immorality it’s much more clear and matter of factly stated. Romans one clearly points this out. Anyone who lives as such, is living in sin. Thats not my judgement, it’s God’s. it is out of love, that we tell people the truth and inform them of God’s ways. To be afraid to teach the truth is not love. To allow those we love and know to continue to live in sin, because they may be offended by God’s truths is not love. There will come a day, when these people are standing in judgement by God, and when they look at us and say, Why didn’t you tell me? What will our answer be?

      • Yes, Jeff, I’m aware that you believe that no appeal to anyone is responsible or complete without trying to scare the ever-dying hell out of them, because you never fail to point it out in your posts. As if any nonbeliever in the English-speaking world doesn’t already hold the opinion that Christians can’t wait to tell them that they’re going to hell and God can’t wait to send them there.

      • “lifestyle”? You mean sexual activity?
        What I have problems with is the very high rate of youth suicide by LGBTQI people. Do you know that many homeless teens are homeless because of their LGBTQI orientation wasnt accepted by their parents and they were kicked out of home? A friend of mine is a pastor to the gay community in Melbourne. Just a couple of weeks ago another young gay person killed himself because he was deemed unacceptable by the church and told he was going to hell for the way God created him. Jason wasnt able to speak to him in time. We need to be very careful how we judge. Porn use is rampant amongst Christians (do you know how many full time ministry staff report a porn problem?), adultery and extra marital sex is endemic in our society and amongst Christians yet LGBTQI people are demonised, ostracised and bullied by Christians…. shakes head…

      • wj, God did not create them to be gay, they chose this sinful lifestyle.Sexual immorality (sex of anykind outside of the marriage bed between a man and woman is sinful) Scripture also says, what a man thinks in his heart so is he. God’s word is clear, why can’t we believe it? Why do so many continue to make excusses for sin?Do we not believe that these people, if they turned to God in repentence and practiced, lived, the moral lifestyle God has set forth, all of their problems would go away? I do! You say scare the living hell out of, kb, don’t ya think thats what Peter did in Acts 2? What about Jesus to the Pharasees in Matt 23? Paul was very clear in Romans and 1 Cor 6. What about the letters to the seven churches in Revelation? Preach the word, be ready in season and out of season. By the way kb, what exactly does “love” mean to you?Also kb, unless we say something to those who are living in sin, and unless they “turn” hell is exactly where they are going. It is out of LOVE that we share the good news with them. Only hate would keep it from them.

  7. I consider the difference between judging the sin, not the sinner a semantic game because I believe that if you were to study the lovingly confrontation of young people about their sinful action, using what ever method you choose, 87% would percieve you to be judgemental of them personally!

    I would have to take issue with the way you defined my attitude. I would say it is the same as you define yours. I’m just concerned about the impact of the “Do Not Judge” because all judging is wrong ideology will have on the church in 30 years or less. The tollerace and acceptance of sin by the church is happening in many tribes already in America. What will keep it out of ours?

  8. “Do not judge because all judging is wrong” is not my ideology. My ideology is “Do not judge people because judging people is wrong.” Part of it. The other part would be “Love people and judge sin because loving people and judging sin is right.” I know I’m not communicating it clearly enough, and I apologize for that. I wish I knew a way to state it more clearly.

    • I would like to offer a thought as far as this separation between the sin and the sinner 1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. The unregenerated in these verses are identified by their sin, it is their identity until they get their new one in Christ. Behavior and identity go hand in hand throughout the N.T.

      • Ron, the point is that Paul didn’t name individual people in connection with those descriptions. He didn’t go to Athens and start shouting “Repent, you idolators!” He knew how to see people as fellow sinners loved by God:

        “Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.” ~ 1 Timothy 1:15

        When it came time to name people, he did so of those destroying the unity and credibility of the church with their sin. He judged their sin to be wrong. Still, rather than labeling them, he stated names and the sin they had committed:

        “Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.” ~ 1 Timothy 1:20, (five verses down).

        I know I’m not communicating my point well enough yet, and I regret that. Our commission is to love people and see people as loved by God and hurt by their sin and in danger of His judgment, not as sinners damned by God. That’s assuming His prerogative. They are, instead, fellow-sinners saved by God’s grace through Jesus’ sacrifice; they just need to know about it in order to be able to accept it.

        How we view people affects the way we communicate with them; affects their perception of us; affects our effectiveness in communicating the gospel.

        If we see others as damned and ourselves as saved, it communicates hypocrisy, because they see our faults and sins — even if it’s no more than the arrogance generated by the way we see ourselves as saved and see them as damned. It communicates judgment of them and their character and their eternal destiny, judgment on our part where none is called for.

        We don’t need to be making a case for what we aren’t called to do — judging others rather than sin — especially when doing that very thing defeats our attempts to reach out in love.

        No one wants to be judged by others, and everyone knows that no human being is capable of, or commanded to, judge other people.

        But virtually everyone understands that we have to make judgments about what is right and what is wrong in this world.

        Does that make more sense?

  9. wcjsydney, per your October 13, 2012 at 8:00 pm comment: These things concern me, too. I’m trying to find a way to express my concerns without being unloving and judgmental toward people. There’s too much of that already, and the results are catastrophic. I won’t permit that kind of abuse to take place here.

    And I’d use a better word than “lifestyle” if I knew one; “activity” is a candidate, but it’s pretty vague also.

    But as believers, we need to talk about what we believe and the reasons why. We need to speak in love and with honesty. We can’t just go on not talking about it and hope that the abuse and bullying and hatred will just go away.

    • kb, I don’t understand the problem your having with words.If someone lives the homosexual “life” it is their “lifestyle”, it is who they are. What we do and what we believe is who we are. I can’t see how we can separate the sin from the person who commits it. We can love the sinner and hate the sin, we did it with our children didn’t we? Christians are commanded to exhort, rebuke, we are to correct one another. We are even to dis-fellowship those who refuse to repent, that would involve a judgement on our part. We base our judgements on God’s word, making them a righteous judgement. Political correctness has brained washed many, we can’t even call sin, sin. Lets do it God’s way and solve all our problems.

      • Jeff, as long as we see others as fellow-sinners deeply lived by God, it isn’t a problem. When we want to call others sinners, it’s a problem.

        I’m trying to use the word “lifestyle” to describe someone who has homosexual relations with someone else — as opposed to someone who experiences homosexual desires but does not act on them.

        I don’t buy into the “that’s who they are” labeling/self-labeling thing. I don’t go out of my way to describe myself as a heterosexual. Labels are created to separate and classify and judge others. That’s not our job. I’ll keep saying it whether anyone else ever picks up on the truth of it. Our job is to love, and sometimes that includes judging something that another has done to be sin and approaching them about it in love and humility as a fellow-sinner — but that is how we are to separate them from what they have done … because we want Christ to do the same for all of us: separate us from our sin.

  10. People point to the Ezekiel 16 content to say that it had nothing to do with homosexuality. There are two ways I respond to that thought. The first is that Ezekiel 16:47 talks about the detestable practices of Sodom. That is the same word used in the Hebrew of Leviticus 18:22 that says homosexuality is detestable. So the idea is there even though it is not explicitly stated. Second, (this may sound somewhat contradictory to what I just said) the prophets tend to use previous examples from Israel’s history where there was overlap. It is possible that Ezekiel can refer to the heart condition of those in Sodom and make comparison with his contemporary Israel. It would only make sense that he is going to draw on parallel behaviors where they exist and refrain from it where the parallel is absent. But the neglect of Ezekiel to specifically mention homosexuality in Ezekiel 16 does not mean it wasn’t part of God’s problem with Sodom. It just means Ezekiel didn’t see think it explicitly fit the context (parallel to) Israel’s current problems and sins. Hope all that rambling made sense.

  11. kb, In your post #27, paragragh 5, you stated that we should see them as fellow sinners saved by the grace of God. They are not saved until they change, “repent” and are washed in the blood of Christ. If they begin to live this way after they have become Christians they once again need to change, ‘repent” in order to be faithful. Yes God loves them, but they must change or they will face the wrath of God, we all will. Why is it so hard for you to warn them. When we preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, He is judging them through us, demanding that they change. To tell the truth is LOVE.

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